Talk:2002 Gujarat riots

"Caused by" parameter

@D4iNa4: The talk page section you linked to does not in any way establish consensus for this parameter; nor do the sources provided there actually support it. We have sourced text in the lead and the body saying that the causes of the riots were complex (to say the least). Please demonstrate that this text is WP:DUE (not just verifiable). Pinging @RegentsPark, Kautilya3, El cid, el campeador, and Capitals00: as the other participants in that discussion (not pinging Sdmarathe, as he is banned from interacting with me and therefore cannot participate directly in this discussion). Vanamonde (Talk) 11:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

I added additional causes mentioned in the lead. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

That's now more complete, and also more confusing. The Godhra burning is generally acknowledged as a trigger, but not a root cause. State terrorism and ethnic cleansing are terms used for the riots themselves; sources say "the riots were an example of ethnic cleansing", not "the riots were caused by ethnic cleansing". It's just too complex to convey in three words in the infobox; hence my contention that it should just be removed. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:08, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: It does seem "complex" and one reason is indeed not enough for a infobox. Even in 2017, we had 1 more option that we should get rid of the infobox but 5 years have passed and there has been no other controversy with the infobox. I agree that this new addition is even more confusing because "state terrorism" (very minority view) and "ethnic cleansing" (one of the common view) is the classification of the riot than the "cause". I agree that this parameter can be blanked again. D4iNa4 (talk) 07:49, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Kautilya, I trust that's okay with you? Vanamonde (Talk) 07:51, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

I don't think the other two reasons - State terrorism & Ethnic cleansing - should be listed, as they have not been proven. We should stick to findings instead of some individual's opinion. Changes like this would make Wikipedia look like an opinion piece. Aniruddh 20:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is written based on reliable sources, and those sources do not agree that Godhra was the sole reason for the scale of violence that ensued.

In response to Vanamonde93's earlier query, I think omiting the field is not a good idea, because somebody will come and add it again. It is easy enough to find good sources that say that Godhra caused it. But the matter doesn't end there. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:00, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I still don't like it. The parameter has no meaning here. It is sociological nonsense; things don't have singular causes. The riots were described as ethnic cleansing; how are they caused by ethnic cleansing? Entire book chapters and journal articles have been written about the genesis of this violence. We can't summarize it in three words. Vanamonde (Talk) 21:22, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Agreed Chinmay nayak23 (talk) 11:02, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Again, including some people's opinions as "caused by" sounds weird. That's not a fact; that's just an individual's opinion. Despite they were taken from a reliable source, they remain opinions of some individuals. Using them as a fact inside the infobox doesn't sound good. Aniruddh 13:55, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

How are is the link to the Godhra incident any less one person's opinion? Vanamonde (Talk) 16:41, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

• @Normstahlie: You should describe your edits here instead of using edit summaries. The "caused by" parameter was written after the above discussion. Why do you believe that it was not an act of state terrorism? Capitals00 (talk) 12:08, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

  I don't see enough scholarly sources which conclusively accuse the state of orchestrating the Riots. Hence why, I edited the aforementioned to "Possible State Terrorism" since state collusion with local forces is possible and as mentioned in the one of the articles cited could be likely. Normstahlie (talk) 05:35, 23 April 2025 (UTC)

This entire article reads like a biased Hindu-phobic propaganda.

- Reflect to Supreme Court of India's verdict on the case. List the names of Godhara Train Burning convicts.

- Remove ridiculous propaganda terms - "State Terrorism" and "Ethnic Cleansing" under "caused by" section.

- Stop taking bribes from George Soros and China.

- Also integrity of editors responsible to contribute to the biased changes to the article in past requires thorough investigation. It's nothing short of a shameless act of information terrorism. Chinmay nayak23 (talk) 11:15, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Narendra Modi about irresponsible journalism by NDTV

Narendra Modi in an informal interview , told told journalist Madhu K that “If you see the data you will see that within 72 hours we had put down the riots and brought the situation under control. But these TV channels kept on playing up the same incidents over and over again"

Modi then further talks about another incident of reporting by journalist Barkha Dutt. “In a second incident in Anjar, she played up the news that a Hanuman mandir had been broken and vandalised. I told her, “What are you up to? You are in Kutch which is a border district. There you are showing the attack and destruction of a temple. Do you realise the implications of broadcasting such news? We haven’t yet recovered from the earthquake. Have you actually done proper investigation into the riots? Why are you lighting fires for us? Your news takes a few minutes to broadcast that such and such place is unprotected or a mandir has been vandalized. But it takes for me a few hours to move the police from one disturbed location to another since these incidents are breaking out in the most unexpected places.”

Modi further said that when he inquired about the said incident, the administration found out that it was a small, insignificant structure under a tree which had been damaged a little bit by some crazy individual. “But NDTV presented it as an attack on a Hanuman mandir. When the fires were raging these journalists were pouring fuel on those fires,” he said. Subsequently, the channel was banned temporarily from broadcasting news in Gujarat as it would only lead to flaring up of communal tension. Modi had called up Rajdeep Sardesai and said, “I will have to put a temporary ban on your channel if you continue with the provocative coverage. There is a well-established regulation that media should not name communities during communal riots nor identify a damaged placed as a mandir or masjid. Why are you violating that code and well set protocol about not naming communities or identifying places, of worship? You are going against established norms.”

Aravind Sivaprasad (talk) 14:36, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Rajdeep Sardasai on modi

Former NDTV employee, Journalist Rajdeep Sardesai said that he personally believed that Modi was not responsible for the 2002 riots that followed after Godhra massacre.

“It is unfair of us to say that Mr Modi or anyone was responsible for the riots. He did not ask or incite violence,” said Rajdeep Sardesai,Responding to a question by journalist Manu Joseph, on whether Narendra Modi the then Chief Minister of Gujarat in 2002 was in any way responsible for the incident, Aravind Sivaprasad (talk) 14:38, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Requested move 25 April 2025

2002 Gujarat riots → 2002 Gujarat violence – A vast majority of scholarly sources describe this incident as an attack on the Muslim minority with the support of the state. It makes more sense to replace the word "riots" in the title with "violence". Koshuri ^(グ) 16:23, 25 April 2025 (UTC)